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The "Elitism" of Japanese Rope

****cts Paar
1.386 Beiträge
Themenersteller Gruppen-Mod 
The "Elitism" of Japanese Rope
I was made aware of this article by saighin.

Although it was written with regard to the North American rope scene, I do believe it does has a lot of relevance here in Germany too.

Worth the read, and I would be interested to hear opinions.

https://www.kinbakutoday.com … uA5wkyDz3T8zeiEjsVgIOWKrmidM

Mr. Aspects
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****shi Mann
214 Beiträge
Thank you Mr. Aspects,

I've just come off a 90-minute discussion with Zetsu where we talked about our overlapping circles, the evolving scene in Japan and the distaste at some of the more commercial approaches some individuals are taking. It's a regular interaction. But I do think you're correct insomuch that the North American scene is motivated (like Americans) towards greed and puritanism. Porn is only acceptable when there's lots of $$$ involved. Otherwise it's cough ungodly.

If I can speak for myself and Zetsu, it does get tiring being called 'elitist' just because we were fortunate to be in the right place at the right time with the right people, seen things the west hasn't, and not been shepherded and filtered by resident gaijin with their own vested motives. I've met really good westerners in Japan and come to know Master K, Jimi Tatu, Genevieve, etc. who seem to be the only people I could relate to, for a while.

When I started interviewing kinbakushi friends for Kinbaku Today, it was because I was so horrified by the utter bullshit I was hearing in the west. So I got these respected kinbakushi to tell it like it is in their words. Not mine, hoping people would get the point. And I'm pleased to say that it appears many have now. I've helped all those who've come to me asking, to connect them with friends and places in Japan so I don't feel so alien and alone here, and I'm pleased to have been useful.

If I stand back and look at the scene as a whole, you can split it between predominantly riggers, and a few, but growing number of what the Japanese would term kinbakushi - very, very different. Both serve their purpose. Some people only want to get tied up, or master other people's ties, and that's fine. Get on with it. But for those who've seen deeper and have deciphered some of the core of what kinbaku is all about, we're not elitist, and we're not your enemy just because we pose a significant threat to some of the charlatans trying to take over what should be personal.

Sorry. My turn for a rant. Obviously, I can't elaborate on my discussions with Zetsu, because that would really upset some applecarts.

S
"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022
*******lue Mann
1.289 Beiträge
Ich finde das Thema ist gut vorgetragen und auch relevant. Allerdings sollte man schon bei einer fachlichen Diskussion verschiedener Fesselstiele die relevanten Protagonisten erwähnen dürfen wenn man die Vor- und Nachteile von technischen Elementen einer Fesselung behandelt. Man kann aus meiner Sicht schon den Namen eines Meisters erwähnen der den entsprechenden Stil geprägt hat. Persönlich ist meine Meinung dazu von der westlichen Auffassung von Wissenschaft geprägt. Ich zitiere im Zweifelsfall so genau wie möglich den Author einer Information wobei es bei der Weitergabe von Wissen über Shibari leider die kulturelle Hemmschwelle der japanischen Wissensvermittlung gibt. Handwerkliche Künste wie Fesseln werden individuell weiter gegeben und das Wissen bekommt dadurch einen sehr hohen Preis für die, die sich an der Quelle darum bemüht haben. Wer dieses Wissen dann weiter gibt kommt schnell in Versuchung Wissen nicht um seiner selbst Willen sondern zur Amortisierung seiner Lern Investition weiter zu geben. Darin liegt aus meiner Sicht eine gewisse persönliche Herausforderung für den Studenten der japanischen Fesselkunst.

Das richtige Maß an Achtung für Authoren mit einer Mentalität von Offenheit und Fairness zu verbinden erscheint mir wichtig. Wenn man sich als Lehrender betätigt sollte man das eigene Wissen weitergeben, die Authoren zitieren und zu einer Verwissenschaftlichung des Themas beitragen. Das wäre aus meiner Sicht ethisch korrekt gehandelt. Ich bin allerdings bei meinen Reisen nach Japan nie wegen der Fesselkunst dort gewesen und habe selber auch nie Unsummen ausgegeben um Shibari an der Quelle zu lernen. Vielleicht fehlt mir daher auch die Autorität über dieses Thema mit zu reden. Aus der Perspektive eines europäischen Schülers von Schülern von japanischen Meistern sehe ich die Dinge eher emotionslos. Es sollte sich daher auch niemand persönlich auf den Schlips getreten fühlen durch meine Sicht des Themas. Ich möchte niemanden persönlich kritisieren mit meinen Anmerkungen, nur meine Meinung dazu sagen.
"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022
*******lue Mann
1.289 Beiträge
Sorry for my use of the German language. I did not realise I was in the English corner. The gist of my post in the German language is a call for fairness towards those who travel to Japan and study Shibari at the source. They do incur high cost for doing that. But one should not fall into the trap to use the Japanese system of individual knowledge transfer in skills like tying as an excuse to do the same in the west where we have a different mind set about learning. My view is that one should have respect for the original authors of a technique or teaching but treat knowledge not as an exclusive resource that is commercially tradable. If someone asks high prices for Japanese style oral and personal teaching that is ok, but it is equally ok for me if another person teaches in classes or uses technology such as video or books or drawings to disseminate knowledge.

My personal preference is the open exchange of knowledge as we see it in science and not necessarily the closed scene with personal knowledge transfer of the Japanese Kinbaku culture. It is a challenge for those who travel to Japan and teach in the west to bridge the gap between the cultures and do so in fairness and with the methods of their choice. I would endeavour to honour the masters and be as accurate in the factual matter of tying techniques as I can. In the end style in arts is free and individual and everybody is finally responsible for what he/she does in the field of bondage. So please do not feel criticised by my opinion if you think that my musings could be aimed towards your way of teaching. They are certainly not meant to be but only my personal view.
****cts Paar
1.386 Beiträge
Themenersteller Gruppen-Mod 
For my part, what struck me the most, was the reminder of Japanese mentality. That, in this particular case, it is a very big difference whether one asks a "Sensi" if one may teach their style of tying, or whether he asks you to teach!

In light of the fact that one would be making a person very uncomfortable by even asking, possibly be considered downright rude. If we want to learn from people from a certain culture, I believe we also need to respect the culture as a whole.... and not just the bits we fancy!
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****shi Mann
214 Beiträge
@*******lue, teaching, and the spread of knowledge is a good thing, in general. Many desire to enter the world of rope bondage, and, as another lover of it, I fully encourage this. Done well, and with the philosophy of providing positive experiences, it is truly a deeply satisfying human pleasure.

However, when it gets corrupted out of all meaning, and dogma appears, and when ordinary individuals are deified, and when status and commercial enterprise is sought off their good names, especially when applied to mere knots, ties, structures, transitions, etc., I personally, and I know many Japanese find it highly distasteful.

Example: I believe I'm only one of two people to have visited Yukimura independently. My contact came through Ugo san, a gentleman, natural diplomat, good friend, and undoubtedly the man with the longest and deepest kinbaku affiliation to Yukimura. Sadly, at the last moment, Ugo could not join me, and I went with Yuki Sakurai and NdT. The most important part of those few hours was tea; being weighed up; being evaluated; what did I want, and why was I there? When it was explained I only desired to understand his personal philosophy and approach (his ryū) for an interview, and had no wish to teach his style, things changed rapidly. He opened up, and began to laugh and joke (especially dirty sexual stuff). Knowing he was in a bad shape with his health didn't seem to bother him until he tired after some hours.

He used the cheapest, shittiest ø4mm jute, probably cut straight off the roll, and not given any treatment. The tying and the rope was not the point. Everything was extremely subtle, and focused into the core of human sexual interaction; capturing and amplifying libido into a heightened wanton state. Something happened in 30 seconds that day that I've been trying to decipher for 4 years so I can put it into words. I think I may have it, but it's an unfolding process with the realisation it may take many more years of human sado-erotic interaction to understand more.

Now imagine what is felt when we see individuals teaching ‘Yukimura Ryū’ as rope structures - dishonouring the dead. As more Japanese have interacted with the west and come across this type of marketing, many have raised an eyebrow. Some have chosen to limit their contact with westerners as a result. I've been turned down from connecting with a couple of kinbakushi purely because I'm a gaijin, as they see gaijin westerners as having no hope of understanding.

To be clear, I don't believe in ‘grandmasters’, I don’t buy the dogma horseshit. Yukimura was a pornographer, and I liked him. He was one of the good guys, and I miss him. When you hear about people squabbling over their affiliation to him, even some charlatan suggesting another westerner is somehow ‘lined up’ to ‘inherit’ his name, it makes you want to puke. If such crap really existed, how on earth can any non-Japanese have any chance to claim such a thing? I know how Yukimura's son dealt with it, and kudos to him for taking a stand.

We have to keep our collective eyes and minds wide open, and see marketing manipulation for what it is, and not fall into its trap. Yes, teaching is a very good thing. But, warped out of context cultivates bad habits and falsehoods that then spread as students in turn become teachers.

S
******m16 Frau
73 Beiträge
Dear all, many thanks for the topic!
I did always want to know about the motivation of a Japanese rope master to tie a girl. And I never assumed it is just to make her look good... Otherwise they would not watch out for masochist. It is a sexual pleasure for a maso being tied up and the way they do is the way it obviously works for the model. We masos don't care how good the suspension looks while being suspendet, but we care very much about how good it feels and what comes after...
And this I want to give my (mostly female) models - and they enjoy it *zwinker*

greetings M.
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****shi Mann
214 Beiträge
Hi M, to quote somebody in Japan unnamed, but most have heard of:

“Why do we tie the girls? So we can fuck them afterwards!”
******m16 Frau
73 Beiträge
That's absolutely my opinion! ... ;))
"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022"No Kinky Shame Fest" performance 24.09.2022
*******lue Mann
1.289 Beiträge
I do not think it is quite that simple. Surely kinbakushi do not have more altruistic motives than any other men. But their BDSM and sexual orientation may lead them to other forms of sexual gratifications for their rope topping services. I suspect that many of the them are sadists or reaction fetishists like myself. Hence tying the rope bottom into subspace and delivering a painful suspension experience might be another way of getting rewarded beyond simply fucking the bottom. It gets even more complicated when transgenders and/or bisexuals persons are in the mix who do not fit the male rigger/female bunny scheme.
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****shi Mann
214 Beiträge
I guess it‘s not that simple, and could never be correctly reported by a mere gaijin like me. But, it's safe to say that historical attitudes to sexuality in Japan have been very different to the west. Just look at the feudal era, where the sensei–deshi relationship often entered the boudoir, and the sensei nenja would extend hospitality to his deshi wakashū in sexual delights, including buggery. If you’re into this, I recommend you check out Nawashi Monko, who’s been around a fair few years. I love it when people claim words like deshi, because I then form a rather dirty mental picture.

Things do seem to be changing and softening in Japan, and some, like ordinary folk discarding Shintoism and Buddhism for Catholicism, are moving towards a western-type vanilla approach to rope bondage. Others are embracing the artistic and leaving behind the sadomasochistic and sado-erotic. But, it would seem that they still remain in the minority.

‘Riggers' and 'bunnies' aren't really a Japanese thing, although, again, some western influence has crept in lately.
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